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June 14, 2005


Ed Fordyce

In the masthead for Esprit, the monthly newspaper for the Diocese of Dallas, the Compass Rose has recently replaced the shield of ECUSA.

Sometimes signals are not so subtle.


Actually, I've been in 3 parishes, 1 "orthodox" and 2 not-so, and they have always read the prayer with the ABC first. I really doubt that it is really some sort of sly attempt to promote a particular type of ecclesiology, but rather a pretty logical step to make. The ABC is no Pope, but he is considered 1st among equals...not to mention that the prayers are designed to go from global perspective to local application.

Grace and Peace,

D. C.

Thanks for stopping by, Joe [JTFS]; nice to see you over here.

Unfortunately, your observation that "the prayers are designed to go from global perspective to local application" doesn't quite fit the facts: Remember that the clause "and for all bishops and other ministers" comes at the end of that particular intercession.

If your view were correct, we would expect the intercession to start with, "For all bishops and other ministers, including Rowan, Archbishop of Canterbury; Frank, our Presiding Bishop," etc. But that's not how it's worded.


Good to be seen!

You are right DC, about the wording of that particular prayer, but don't most of the prayers work that way? We pray for the world and then for ourselves and our specific community? I don't have a BCP handy, but that's the way it seems to me just going from memory.

At any rate, either way, it still seems to me to be just a logical progression rather than a sly trick. I could be wrong.

Grace and Peace,


But Taffy does outrank Griswold. If you accept the claim that he's the legitimate ABC--and that's another debate--then Taffy's an archbishop and a primate, and Frank's just a palooka from Palookaville.

D. C.

RFP, I think you may be forgetting about a little episode in history called the American Revolution. The ABC is merely primus inter pares among primates. In any other church, Griswold's title would be archbishop; we simply choose to use a different title here. Griswold is a primate -- that is part of his title -- just as much so as the ABC.


Chris Jones


I don't know if this was the usage RFP had in mind, but in England, "Taffy" is an old-fashioned, mildly pejorative nickname for a Welshman. It is, I think, a play on the name "Dafydd", which is a quite common Welsh first name. (Dafydd is the Welsh form of the name David, and is the name of the patron saint of Wales.)

On the main point of this post: it is a long-established liturgical tradition, observed by all Catholic communions, that the bishop who presides over an autocephalous (i.e. independent and self-governing) ecclesiastical province is commemorated in prayer first, before the bishop of the diocese, and before any prayer for "bishops in general". Thus in a Greek Orthodox parish, the priest will commemorate first the patriarch of Constantinople, and then the local bishop. This is why, in an RC parish, the Pope is commemorated before the local bishop. It is an acknowledgement of Papal supremacy.

So I have little doubt that DC is right that parishes in which +Cantuar is being commemorated before the PB or the local bishop are consciously acknowledging a sort of primacy for Canterbury over and above (or, perhaps, instead of) the jurisdiction of the Episcopal Church.

DC and I probably differ, though, as to whether that is a good idea.

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