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June 16, 2005

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John Wilkins

I always considered the fourth gospel part of the church's kerygma - the spirit. It is, in itself, a book of riddles and puns which only the enlightened are meant to understand. It's also an implicit commentary of the Gospel of Matthew.

"you search the [jewish] scriptures but you do not find me." I suspect it is a document meant to separate the young Christian community from the Pharisees.

bls

I love John - and I also can't stand it.

The Prologue is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. Then you have the polemic - along with its unfortunate history. Reynolds Price says he's sure the author would have thought twice about that aspect, could he have known what would happen. He also says that John is quite interesting in that it's almost completely free of ethical instructions from Jesus. He says, interestingly, that it's an "old man's book" - and that almost nobody remarks on that fact.

Like you, I take it with a grain of salt - but I also feel very attracted to it. That's an interesting place to be, emotionally, actually.

Radicalfeministpoet

I can't find a copy of that Trois Années on the web or at amazon.com, amazon.fr, or abebooks.com. I know it's a bit of a chore, but could could you post some of it on your blog for us to read? I'd love to see it even if as you say it's not all that reliable.

D. C.

There's actually no such book as Trois Années; it's a fictional document that I'm using to illustrate the point.

Radicalfeministpoet

That's OK with me. I probably read more fiction than non-fiction anyway. It seems awfully hard to track down, though. Is your copy from a college library or something?

D. C.

RFP, what I meant was, there's no such thing as the book Trois Années. I made it up -- it doesn't exist.

Radicalfeministpoet

I'm not so sure about that. The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure that we read it back in college. JFK was pretty popular in France, mainly because of his wife, funny enough. There aren't many American the French like--Jerry Lewis is the most obvious, and Josephine Baker.

The trouble is I'm having some work done on the house and my library is all packed away in dozens upon dozens of boxes stacked in the conservatory. You've really got my curiousity going though, so I'm probably going to spend all night digging through there trying to find it.

Radicalfeministpoet

No luck in the conservatory yet, though I've found all sorts of other great books. But this is probably the book, which was on amazon.fr after all--I must have missed it first time around. Whether its' all true or should be taken with un grain de sel probably depends on your politics. I seem to remember bits about some pretty wild pool parties in the la Maison blanche

highflyer

If you'll pardon a "drive-by" from a sympathetic lurker, I'd like to correct the curious provenace attributed to the famous memoir of JFK and Camelot in Radfem's link, which if memory serves me correctly appeared in 1964 or 1965, written, as QC has said correctly, in French. I don't know how or why amazon is selling this anonymous history-cum-gossipfest as the work of M. Tchekov, a rather low level figure in the French civil service in the 1960s and early 70s. I was under the impression that historians are of the general opinion that it is the work of none other than Pierre Salinger. Now that the identity of Deep Throat has been revealed, the real identitiy of the author of Trois Annees is perhaps the one remaining mystery of 20th century presidential politics.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with St John's Gospel--or, in the wearisome PC-speak of today, the "Fourth Gospel". (This from the same cementheads who use "CE" instead of "AD"). Perhaps QC could flesh this out a bit. Is M. Salinger supposed to represent "the beloved disciple"?

MJD_NV

"Instead, we should simply accept that none of us really knows whether the Fourth Gospel's christology is correct. "

Or we could have a little more respect to the 1st century Christians that begged John to write his gospel before he died AND to the church fathers who included it in the canon in spite of its late date.

Bisides, your logic is circular. You ought to have just as much trouble with the Synoptics - especially if the theory that Matthew and Luke are just more fleshed-out versions of Mark. They hold absolutely no more credibility than John.

Of course, that's according to your secular world-view. I still can't figure out why you insist on calling yourself a Christian.

Titus

You know, talking with Jehovah's Witnesses caused me to stop using John 1:1 to prove the Trinity. Because of that, I ended up doing studies on the Trinity to see if it was in fact biblically sound. If we really are searching for the truth, and that truth is Jesus, then why should we take the precepts of men as doctrines of God, right?

So let's take that book away, not just the first verse.

Well, 2 Corinthians 3:17 says that the Lord is the Spirit; Acts 5:3,4 we have lying to the Holy Spirit equated to lying to God. So that takes care of the Holy Spirit.

Now on to the Jesus bit. The scriptures clearly state that Elijah has to return before the LORD comes (Mal 4:5). Luke 1:17 says that John the Baptist had the spirit and power of Elijah, and Matthew 17:10-13 Jesus says that Elijah has come already, and the disciples realize He is talking about John. He explicitly says this in Matthew 11:11-15.

There are more ways to show the Trinity, and that Jesus is God as well. 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 1:3,4 (God and Jesus are both savior, not saviors), there are more, but I don't want to clutter up your blog. You can email me if you wish.

Think about God saying there is no other savior besides Him in Isaiah 43:11 and Hosea 13:4, then ask how Jesus could be the savior. He couldn't be a savior, unless He was God. His saving is a different type of saving than in Judges too, that saving was temporal, this is eternal.

It is fine to question, but make sure you don't get lost in a world of hypothetical situations. Our Law is to love God and love people. Eternal life is knowing the one true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. If we're lacking in those two areas, we need to back up and get our priorities straight.

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